Possibly, I'm in a mood

[dragovianknight]

While I'm aware this is a rant, and while the rant-er has some good points, the whole tone makes me want to write a slagging novel and then post it in 200 word chapters. Without links. Or tags. Contrary Dragovian is contrary, apparently.

Comments

[lassarina]

I mean, I link and tag everything, but I post my fic in chapters for a reason. Nobody is going to slog through a single HTML file of my 200K massive epic thing. (I have doubts anyone's going to slog through the damn thing ANYWAY but whatever.) Yes, I understand the points she's making and why she's upset, but WOW entitlement. (Also, it takes you 30 seconds extra to cut/paste multiple HTML files into an MS Word file. If you're not willing to do that, well, that's your own personal problem, yeah?)

[dragovianknight]

Also, it takes you 30 seconds extra to cut/paste multiple HTML files into an MS Word file.

HER TIME AS A READER IS MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN YOURS AS A WRITER, OKAY?

I mean, yes, it would be kind of shiny for people to post a link to a nice, easily downloaded file (even *gasp* the dreaded PDF which is also not good enough for her!) for on-the-go reading, and I entertained the idea of adding such a feature to my website, for about five seconds into the rant.

[lassarina]

Pfffft without us writers where would she be? Yeah. Exactly.

I mean, when the Epic Thing of Doom is done, I'll be posting it in a complete PDF for those as want it that way. I'll probably even do a director's cut kind of thing with lots of commentary on "what I was trying to do here" because, fuck sake, this thing has consumed 3 years of my life already I might as well be able to yammer about it and pretend people will care, right?

But....seriously, there are all manner of solutions to her issue. She needs to have some chill pills.

[dragovianknight]

The Epic Thing of Doom is a fine example of something I would LOVE to be able to download in PDF format, but I certainly would not complain about you choosing to just post chapters to your journal. Because just in the writing of it, you've done a huge amount of work for my reading pleasure, and it would be kind of a dick move to demand you do more.

Fandom. I swear.

[lassarina]

I have to wonder if some of the people who rant about this sort of thing have actually written themselves or archived things themselves? It seems like a lot of the people who say OMG DIFFERENT STYLE PLEASE are...maybe not conversant with the amount of effort it takes?

And speaking only for myself, if I was going to read a 20,000 word big bang type of fic, I'd much rather have it broken into ten chapters of 2k each or something just for my own ease in reading. Really tiny scroll bars intimidate me for some reason.

[dragovianknight]

Possible, but I would think even a non-writer would realize 20,000 words is a lot of words and probably took some time and effort. I might be giving people too much credit, though; some really do seem to think stories just appear from the ether, like magic.

I like massive stories broken down into chapters because it's a lot easier to bookmark chapter three when I have to stop reading and work, than it would be to find where I left off in a novel-length document. (and yes, I know there are workarounds there, too, but still; I hit bookmark, I close Firefox, the end. This works best for me when I'm in a rush.)

[lassarina]

Yes! And for ongoing things, it reminds me that I meant to go back and read that when I had time. (I'm super terrible about that.)

[dragovianknight]

Yes, that too! Sometimes, I go through my bookmarks and discover the most wond'rous things languishing forgotten.

[amalthia]

I think the difference in our reading styles is that I save fics to my usb stick to read at work on MS office. I don't have access to LJ or any other site that's halfway interesting so what I can save in my 1 hour window of time online at night is pretty much what I get to read at work. 20 plus chapters...take too much time for a grab and dash. :(

[amalthia]

For my part I've archived all the stories I've written in various archives. I was on the internet before LJ was invented so for a long time to find fan fiction you had to visit archives, mailing lists, and author websites. I have my stories posted to skyhawke, Inkquill archive, my personal fan fiction website, the Angst Archive, and fan fiction.net until they pulled the plug on adult stories.

I also posted as chapters and in complete files. The main difference between archives hosted on efiction is that I can post my chapters 2k words at a time and those that enjoy reading stories that way have the option to read the story that way where as those who enjoy single file stories can access the story as a single file as well. Basically, archives give the readers options and authors also have options as to how they'd like to post.

With LJ there is no real search function, you're pretty much stuck with how the author presents the story on his/her journal. Some authors are good at it, keeping consistent tagging schemes and not using RTF to submit fics but others aren't and it's not bad for short stories but if you're going to post an epic to LJ you have to be organized about it if you want your reader to find all the chapters of your story easily.

Another thing is that because I archive stories for the Angst Archive and the Ebook Library I'm not just merging one story. I'm merging 20-50 stories a week. (well I was until I started to get carpal tunnel) Now I'm only merging stories others have recommended and I've learned to be more selective.

It is not easy to get single file stories from LJ to add to e-ink devices that I and many fan fiction readers are now using.

[amalthia]

Um, have you actually ever merged a story that was over 30 chapters into a single file? just saying it takes longer than 30 extra seconds.

[amalthia]

I've created ebooks for authors who didn't have the time or know how to create them. I'd be willing to go through someone's 200k word story and create chapter headings/table of contents/embed artwork or add cover art. I love reading fan fiction novels on my sony e-ink device it's a real treat. I've had a lot of other readers and writers also say they love reading on their ipods and portable devices.

I get the impression you've never actually cut and paste any story over 2 chapters together if you think it only takes 30 seconds. Go here and merge this story into a single file and tell me how long it took you to download every single part, open them in word, and merge. Without messing anything up while you're at it. If it takes you less than 30 seconds I'll eat my hat.

And then right after that merge all the stories from the SPN Big bang from this year, there were only about 230 fics 99.9% hosted on LJ and most were bout 20k..Though a few were in the 100k range and needed about 20 chapters to post completely. Though to be honest some of the 20k "needed" 20 chapters too.

I think most people don't know what all goes into archiving stories or converting stories into ebook friendly formats.

I know my rant was months old and I've cut back a lot on converting stories since I posted it, and I've grown even more selective in what I'll read. (generally going with what's easiest for me to read) I've been less grr about the topic. But I found this post on accident and I felt compelled to respond.

[lassarina]

Not to be a snit about it; maybe I'm spoilt by having an exceedingly fast computer but Ctrl+A Alt+Tab Ctrl+V takes me under a second per chapter. 2) I have actually cut and pasted several stories of up to 35 chapters together, and while 35 chapters might take me a smidge over 30 seconds, it doesn't do so by much.

I've been archiving my stories in various formats (HTML, rtf, PDF, LJ-ified, .doc, GDocs) for about 12 years now, and that's just counting the ones I keep on the Internet. I'm pretty comfortable with the process. For my fics over 3 chapters, I typically *do* merge them when I'm done. However, I resent being told that I'm doing it wrong because I'm not choosing to do it every time, or that I'm doing it wrong because I archive in chapters.

YMMV and obviously does, but I stand by what I said.

[amalthia]

I also use control+v and control+c but what I'm curious about is how are you removing all the comments and heading information from LJ posts so quickly? Even when I use ?light=format the comments are still there, as well as the basic header information. I normally have to highlight the text manually because selecting all the comments with icons would cause my computer to really slow down.

When I first started merging stories it didn't seem so bad it's not until after a couple hundred that you really start to appreciate the authors that make it easier.

I don't recall saying you're posting it your stories wrong for posting in chapters. I'm just pointing out that I prefer single file stories and I always advocate archives because it gives the authors and the readers more flexibility. Authors can post as they like and readers can read as they like.

With LJ someone is always unhappy because if you're a reader like me all the small chapters can be unpleasant and a turnoff and yet if you were an author that posted stories in single file there would be someone out there unhappy that you hadn't split your story into chapters, I'm assuming you'd be the reader who'd look at one big file and say no way Jose! No matter what you do as an author someone will be unhappy with your choice.

To me this is the biggest failing of LJ story posting.

I've posted about this quite often and I have found that by talking with readers and writers that for every person that likes chapters there is someone else that likes single file. So in this situation there is no wrong posting method and yet no right posting method either.


I also resented your comment. "Pfffft without us writers where would she be? Yeah. Exactly."

Because it shows you didn't even look through any of my websites or check out the fan fiction I had written, and then you completely dismiss any reader who is not a writer. Fandom is more than just the stories. It's all the people who make vids, icons, run the newsletters, create recommendations, tutorials, run the archives. No lie the stories are important but so are all the other contributions.

All these people are your readers and they also participate in fandom in the ways they can and just because some readers prefer to read fic one way, you say they are entitled.

I'm voicing my personal opinion. My rant that sparked this post was my opinion based on my experiences of merging fics. I don't think or recall saying my way is the only right way. I'm saying it's the way I like best. And other people have come along and agreed with me and others have said they like chapter reading because they read at home, or their work hasn't blocked LJ yet, and it is easier for them to keep track of where they are in the story. I don't invalidate their opinions on how readers want to read the fic. It's why all my fic is posted in an efiction archive at my personal fiction site. I like giving my readers what they want. My site has my fics in chapters and those that want to read in a single file can hit the single file button. I moved to efiction after more than one person asked for single file downloads.

The LJ format of sharing fan fiction can't meet everyone's needs as it currently stands.

I think what's happening is that for a long time fan fiction was happening on the internet, on the computer so the posting and reading habits developed based on web browser reading.

That is no longer the case. People are taking fan fiction with them on e-ink devices, ipods/iphones/smartphones, PSP players, and the normal way of reading fan fiction, while is still normal, has added a new dimension.

I'm guessing this is like the period when fandom shifted from zines to internet...it won't all go smoothly. Because you have people are are going to read on the computer due to lack of other options and you have those like me who are trying to get away from reading on the computer (due to carpal tunnel and tendinitis in the neck).

Switching topics. Earlier I was checking out your LJ and I could not find your master fic list. I went through your tags but I had a difficult time finding your stories. I wasn't sure if you hosted your stories elsewhere? Because it sounds like you've been in fandom for some time.

[lassarina]

I probably owe you an apology; I've been in quite a mood today and I seem to have inadvertently been a right bitch this evening to a number of people. So I will apologize for having been in a snit and taken it out on you.

I do all my reading on the computer, and not on e-readers. For me and my attention span--and the failtasticness of LJ regarding being able to bookmark your place in a very large chapter--I much prefer my stories in bite-size chunks. Even when saving to my hard drive, I'll often break it down into sections in a Word doc or smaller files, just because that's how I prefer it. I've read things in single files, but I really like built-in break points.

No, I'll freely cop that I didn't dig through your sites or read your fiction. This particular entry of dragovianknight's had pointed at a rant, which I read and then reacted to as written, in vacuum. It was some of the sentiments expressed in your rant--or, perhaps, the way they were said--that I took exception to when making my (probably overly caustic) comment about readers/writers.

It's not so much the preference for one style over another that I object to as entitlement, it's when people will complain about an author because zie doesn't automatically provide both. At the time I read your rant and made my comments above, I was reading your rant as being that sort of complaint: that you were uninterested in any author who wouldn't take that extra step to provide a single file for readers like you. In retrospect that may not have been the case; it was, however, my reactio to what you'd posted.

Topic switch: I maintain a separate journal for my fic, so that those who don't want to endure my blather and nattering don't have to if they're only here for the fic. My Dreamwidth ficjournal is rose_in_winter, and before I moved my fic to LJ in 2003, I was on Fanfiction.net. (I'm still there, and I still post longer works there, because of the increased audience.) Before that I lurked and read more than I published (which is not to say more than I wrote), on IDs I prefer to forget due to their being mine in high school and my commentary showing my age in an unflattering fashion.

I'm sorry if this comment is disjointed or nonsensical; it's 3 am here and I can't sleep so I am apparently flailing about on the Internet as an Excellent Life Choice.

[amalthia]

Apology accepted. I know when I'm tired I'm not always at my best.

I think the hard part about writing a rant is that by their very nature rants come from a place of anger or frustration and it's very hard to express your opinion without letting that frustration bleed through. And it's hard to judge tone in writing. Though, I've written stories I do not find expressing myself clearly an easy task.

On LJ I don't expect authors to provide both single and chapter file stories, it's nice if they do but not exactly expected. The only ones who are able to provide single file versions are mostly posting their fics to DW within the character limits, or they have their own website, or they are posting to archives. I have and do offer free website space on my domain, but honestly, no one has ever taken up that offer.

I think not many people feel comfortable coding html, and no lie DW/LJ makes it easy to feel like you have a website but not have the same worries of actually having a website. Like keeping it virus free, maintaining backups, and unless you're good with css re-designing is more challenging. This is why I use LJ/DW for all my rec posts, just trying to imagine keeping that going on a webpage...

Ultimately, I have found that asking the author if they have a single file version (politely!) actually goes a long ways. Sometimes authors have a copy and sometimes they don't. If they don't and the story was highly recommended or the summary was really interesting I'll merge it myself and ask if the author would like a copy when I'm done so that if anyone else's asks they can share the one I made.

I also volunteered to create ebook versions of the Supernatural Big Bang stories for any author that was interested, a few took me up on that offer and that was a lot of fun. I actually really enjoy formatting stories into ebook format and helping authors and readers out like that. It's a great way to meet new people and the artists! :)

If I was the reader that would refuse to read anything not in a single file, it would be slim pickings indeed for my main fandom, which is Supernatural. :(

Since I wrote that rant I pretty much changed how I approach fiction because I think it was that rant that made me realize I was going to burn out completely and feel miserable if I kept going on the same path I was on. So I started asking authors first before merging fics, I ask my flist if anyone else has merged the story first, I read the first chapter! to see if the story is one I'd like to continue to read.

Strangely, realizing I could ask for help really took a load off my shoulders and since then I think I've gotten much less grrr about the topic.

If I remember correctly, I think what sparked that rant was that one of the Torchwood Big Bang moderators had contacted me about creating ebook versions of the stories and I explained why PDFs while great for printing would not work on e-ink devices because I had assumed they wanted my help to make the single file versions ebook friendly. And after I sent them the answers to their questions and volunteered to help create the files or teach the person who would make them, I never heard back.

Then the site came online and they pretty much did nothing with what I had sent them, or with what other people had posted, and they never did respond to any of my other inquiries.

So in this instance, I was a bit disappointed and I felt like they'd wasted my time. And the time of other people who had responded like I had.

I do understand it was their big bang challenge and their show to run since they organized it but I don't think I'd ever had anything like that happen before so I didn't know what to think or feel at the time. But in hindsight, I realize that was last straw on the camel's back.

Okay that was rather long winded. I mostly had planned to say thanks for helping clarify where your stories are at and I look forward to seeing what other anime fandoms you've written in. :)

[lassarina]

Oh, yeah, I can totally see how that background information would lead to ranting. I'd be pretty well brassed off too.

I haven't written much for anime; I'm mostly a video games girl, but one never can tell when something will up and grab my brain and refuse to let go. :)

[amalthia]

I was mostly into Fushigi Yuugi, FMA, Gundam Wing, X, and Weiss Kruez (sp?). I have read some Final Fantasy stories because if you read around anime fandoms it's impossible to not come across recs for them. :) But for me the biggest challenge was not knowing who the characters were! ship manifesto I think did one pairing for final fantasy but it's been a few years since I've gone to the community or used it for unknown character pairings. I do admit the guys are pretty. :)

Someday when I'm done with grad school I'll this thing people call life and I should have more time to explore. :)

[lassarina]

I actually just finished watching FMA, but I find the fandom really intimidating - too much so to write in it after only having watched the first anime (and only once), and not read the manga. I hear scary things about that fandom sometimes.

Weiß! I was totally late to the party on that one, but I had a friend who was really, really active in that fandom in 2002-2003. I eventually tracked down the series and watched it all, but again, found the fandom really intimidating. Which I suppose FF is if you're not in it, but I stick to the tiny fandoms for unloved games (oh FF4 ;_;) and that helps a bit.

You could also try the FF Wiki if you wanted a quick summary of the characters - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com is actually pretty solid.

[amalthia]

yeah FMA I had the hardest time figuring out where the fandom was and finding recs...I read a bit.

I loved the anime series and I read that they are re-making it based on the mangas now...so I'm a bit ambivalent because I really did love what I saw but I hear the manga is really good.

But yes, it is intimidating going into fandoms that are established. Recently I've been on a Smallville kick and their one main archive has over 5k stories. There is a search function...but i'm not familiar with most of the authors.